Will there ever by another Leica CL or even, a new Leica compact? Despite all the wishful thinking, I actually believe Leica’s bosses when they tell us they have no plans to resurrect APS-C. After nearly 15 years of using the format, from the X1 through to the CL, Leica decided to focus its future efforts on full-frame and medium format. But might there be a new compact Leica waiting in the wings, using another smaller format that the company has dabbled with in the past?
Although Leica produced some excellent APS-C cameras, there was little evidence of commitment to organic development. This lack of continuity contrasts with Fujifilm’s approach to the barnstorming X100 series. It can be argued that the X100IV is so successful because it is a logical development of a proven formula.
Curiously, Leica knows this instinctively, for the M rangefinder remains the most successful example of organic development in the photographic world. Who knows what would have happened had Leica spent the past 15 years gradually developing the successful X1. It was the perfect size and embodied the simplicity in control layout that Leica new strives for in the M, Q and SL ranges.
But all is not lost…
Sadly, however, Panasonic’s decision to soft-pedal on compacts means that the LX100 II is being withdrawn. And the Leica camera based on the Panasonic, the D-Lux 7, is also likely to disappear. This is a great pity. Not only is the D-Lux 7 a great little camera renowned for its versatility and sharp images, it has been the range “starter” camera since the loss of the CL and TL. It will leave a void that, I suggest, Leica needs to fill.
The cheapest Leica camera you can now buy costs north of 5,000 in dollars or pounds. This isn’t small change and represents a high bar for anyone deciding to join the Leica family. The range is crying out for a starter model to attract red-dot admirers, but at a more realistic price. The hope then is that these converts will in due course cast lustful eyes on a Q, an SL or, even, an M.
Recently, we’ve seen rumours that Leica is working on a new compact and that it will be manufactured (or, at least, assembled) in house. Unlike previous compacts, such as the D-Lux and V-Lux, it is thought that it will be pure Leica with no direct relationship with a Panasonic. Some pundits believe this new compact could use a Fuji base, but my feeling is that it is unlikely for two reasons.
The first is Leica’s stated withdrawal from APS-C, and any compact camera with Fuji internals would have to be of that format. Second, it would be a strange departure to cooperate with Fuji when the L2 Technology partnership and the L-Mount Alliance has created such a strong bond between Leica and Panasonic.
We don’t know much, if anything, about this potential new camera. But I am trying to be realistic, and my hope is for a new version of the D-Lux 7 which, because of its Leica-specific kudos, will fit the bill as a starter camera. Both the D-Lux 7 and Panasonic’s LX100 II are excellent performers with outstanding Leica-designed optics, so it sounds like a good foundation to me.
The die is cast, but…
No doubt the die has been cast many months ago and the new compact, if it exists at all, must be well on the way to production. So anything I write here is just a bit of fun and is based purely on musings of the “once upon a time” variety. I’ve been thinking about what I would like to see in a new Leica compact. I would take all the best bits of the D-Lux 7 and turn it into a real family member that no one would mistake for a third-party model.
If this conjecture is correct, the compact could feature similar innards and the same lens, with a similar four-thirds sensor. Essentially, I get the impression Leica is not in the business of designing and building an entirely new compact at this stage.
Here’s what I’d like to see
Let’s get the technicalities out of the way first. I would go with a very similar specification to the current D-Lux — retaining the splendid 24-75mm (equivalent) Vario-Summilux f/1.7-2.8 ASPH zoom lens and a four-thirds sensor. I doubt that Leica would consider developing a new lens because of the cost, and there is nothing much wrong with the current design, so expect it to remain, just as the Q lens has been carried through three generations.
A more powerful image processor is a possibility, and there might also be the opportunity to upgrade the sensor in line with Panasonic’s high-end M43 cameras. 1The term micro four thirds is restricted to use in connection with the interchangeable-lens system, which includes Panasonic and OM Systems, in addition to many others. Leica is not part of this alliance, so it is important not to refer to the D-Lux 7 as a micro four thirds device. Improvements to the EVF and screen resolution (currently 2.76MP and 1.35MP respectively) are also a distinct possibility.
But there are three specific areas where Leica could create an impact, and convince potential buyers that this is a home-grown model and a true starter Leica. What would I do if I were in the driving seat?
Three ways to turn the D-Lux into a true Leica
The design
This new compact should look like a modern Leica first and foremost. It could resemble the Q3, for instance, whereas the current D-Lux 7 more clearly shows its Panasonic heritage. It could even take after the digital CL, a sort of Barnack retro-look that most Leica users would find attractive. With a black finish, and black lens, the sleight of hand would be complete. An ostensibly new camera, which Leica could claim is made in Europe (probably it would be assembled in Portugal if I had to guess) would take its place on the Leica starting grid.
The controls
Again, this new body could embrace the simplified control layout which, in concept, is now common to all other models in the range. The D-Lux 7, as with any Panasonic design, has a plethora of dials and knobs, in direct contrast to Leica’s current practice2Let’s leave aside the valid comment that the D-Lux 7 looks more like an old Leica than any modern Leica…. As a result, if we can refer to the Q3 as a blueprint, I would restrict the rear controls to Play, Menu and the four-way pad on the back of the camera, plus a couple of assignable push buttons and a control for the EVF.
The top plate could be pure Q3, with just one programmable dial for adjustments (replacing the dedicated exposure compensation dial) and the shutter-speed dial. However, Leica might feel obliged to carry over the zoom control, which has always been a feature of the Panasonic compacts. Simplicity should be the watchword, however.
If I could add another couple of wishes, I would dispense with the four-way pad in favour of a joystick, as on the SL3. This is probably Leica’s plan for future cameras, including the Q4, so perhaps the change will be adopted. Finally, could we have a tilting display similar to those on the other current Leicas? This would certainly add to the cohesion of the model range.
The menu system
Despite the Leica logo on the opening and closing screens, the menu layout of the D-Lux 7 is noticeably Panasonic and underlines the connection between the Leica and the LX100. Here’s an opportunity to make a radical change to bring the new compact into line with the other models in the range. Nothing would more emphasise the home-grown nature of the starter camera and convince buyers that this is an all-new design.
What’s in a name?
Here is another big opportunity for Leica to draw a firm line under the D-Lux brand and bring the camera fully into the family: Change the name.
I have never liked the D-Lux moniker. Despite Leica’s clear desire to echo the historic “lux” suffix 3Latin for “light” and long used as the suffix of Summilux in Leica lens terminology to describe a fast aperture lens of between f/1.4 and f/1.7), few outside the closely knit Leica world appreciate the association.
Instead, “D-Lux” is too easily read as “deluxe” which has rather tasteless connotations. In the not-so-distant past, it was considered a suitable designation for motor cars with more pretence than substance, and it now signifies almost the opposite of what is intended.
But what are the alternatives?
A single or double letter combination is the answer, and this would complement the current offering of M, Q and SL. The Abteilung für Kamera- und Objektivbenennung4Department for Camera and Lens Naming, fictitious, of course… in Wetzlar has a long list to choose from, despite several no-go letters such as M, R, C, T, V and S. Leica D is as good as any, and I’m going to stick with that, although I will probably be wrong. It would nicely create symbiosis with current model designations, as well as indirectly linking back to the old D-Lux.
We can let our fancy run free on nomenclature, but we most likely won’t guess the answer. However, let us just hope they don’t call it the D-Lux 8 because that would set the camera off on entirely the wrong foot.
Crystal ball
The editorial crystal ball has been polished frequently this year. I mentioned the possibility of a new compact in my review of what to expect in 2024 and 2025,
…it now seems likely that there will be a D-Lux 8. Even if Panasonic doesn’t replace the LX100, Leica could introduce a new, exclusive compact. There ought to be one to balance the range…
Macfilos, February 2024
Leica has the opportunity to surprise, by presenting a wholly new Leica camera, but without the cost of developing an entirely original device. A D-Lux with a new suit of clothes and snappy modern handling could work wonders. Properly done, despite the under-the-hood D-Lux heritage, this could be a winner for Leica.
All this, as you know, is conjecture based on how I visualise a replacement for the D-Lux 7. Of course, I am probably entirely wrong. But there’s no harm in a bit of speculation…
And one more thing…
It’s now over three years since I sold my D-Lux 7 (about the time I acquired the latest Ricoh GRIII), but this article prompted me to review the shots taken in the two years of ownership. And, you know what, they brought back some memories and I began to wonder why I ever sold the little camera. So a new compact that is at least as good as the D-Lux 7 in its results could persuade me to dip back into the four-thirds format.
What’s your take on a new Leica compact? Are you expecting a mini Q with an APS-C sensor and Fuji internals, or do you agree with Mike that we will see a revised D-Lux with a sparkling new Leica-style coat and a more promising future? Maybe you feel Leica should stick with what it does best and drop out of the compact market? Let’s discuss…
Read earlier insights from the Macfilos crystal ball. How accurate were they, how accurate will they be?
New from Leica: Cameras coming in 2023-2024
Leica in 2024-2025: What’s next from Wetzlar
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D-Lux 8, identical to the D-Lux 7, available June 16th, 2024
It looks like the Panasonic S9 is real and coming soon. While it’s an ILC and lacks a built in EVF, it does look very compact (and thus ticks that box).
While a more traditional form factor, it somewhat resembles a FF take on the Leica T/TL/TL2.
Or, looked at another way, if Leica were to release their version of it, an M without a viewfinder but with AF!
They both (T/TL2 and S9) have a small form factor and no EVF. For me that is where the similarities stop though. They look like very different cameras aimed at very different audiences. It will be interesting to see whether there will be a Leica-branded version of the S9 as well. For T/TL2/CL lens owners the S9 will unfortunately only output 10MP files. Not worthwhile buying it for that in my opinion.
As you know, Slow Driver, we get advance notice of new product announcements but we are obliged to adhere to the press embargo not to publish until the appointed hour and minute. It’s sometimes difficult to avoid commenting on speculation. However, on balance, adhering to manufacturers’ deadlines allows us to prepare an announcement in advance. So we will have wait to see what happens on Wednesday and Thursday this coming week!
All rumors point to a D-Lux-8 first. I expect only cosmetic changes. Probably just like the James Bond edition (1,962 pieces at $1,995 = $3.9M) it would be a relatively easy (and not requiring much R&D) money grab for Leica. An ICL Q (or FF CL) is also still being rumored. Let’s keep our fingers crossed.
As in the article, I think a reworked D-Lux 7 is the most likely result. But I am fairly convinced there will be more than basic cosmetic changes. And I do hope there will be a new name to separate this Leica-only camera from the previous cooperative venture.
A new D-Lux is actually an interesting move from Leica in multiple ways: 1) I would not have expected Leica to continue with the D-Lux line without the assistance of Panasonic. 2) a new D-Lux would go radically against the direction of Leica the last 5+ years of only valuing high end systems with a price tag of more than $5K. Perhaps through the CL Leica realized that abandoning systems does not go down that well with their customer base?
Fun, well written post! Let’s hope for a Leica X3. I might sell my X2 and X Vario to afford an X3. 😄
Another good potential name!
Looking over previous posts on other forums, there is a 2022 quote from Panasonic that they are giving up Lumix low-priced cameras and will develop with Leica a new mirrorless camera:
https://leicarumors.com/2022/08/07/panasonic-is-done-with-compacts-will-announce-a-new-mirrorless-camera-co-developed-with-leica.aspx/#ixzz7bLLKxGiy.
Another insider post implied that a new full frame Leica camera will shortly be introduced:
“The Leica CL (2017) truly has the proportions of the original film Leica, which means it is smaller than a Leica M and a Leica Q. The fact that it had an APS-C sensor was the reason for its death sentence in 2022. But a new full-frame version is expected in 2024 as a way to use L-mount lenses on a smaller camera body. © Thorsten Overgaard.”
The question remains: Would Leica develop in house a 4/3rd sensor camera based on the D-Lux7 or a completely new design? Would sales of an “intro” camera to the Leica World be justifiable? I don’t think a smaller sensor camera is likely, their new phone has a 1-inch sensor!
Or, a smaller full-frame camera, eg. a Leica Q body with the L-mount? (With the L-M adapter, an ersatz EVF-M!)
It would be nice if they did a camera more compact than the Q3 but for the foreseeable future I am sticking to my gorgeous Fujifilm 100vI
Brian, it may be I’ll pick your brains about the 100 series, when my X expires and goes to the great tech graveyard, it is the only camera really in that niche, but I’ve read so many conflicting reports on it, and I’ve never owned a Fuji. I probably wouldn’t know where to start. 🤣
Steady on, old chap, this is going to my head. But thanks for the analysis and I will now look at that photograph with fresh eyes.
At the weekend I was listening to Magnum photographer Ian Berry, who actually worked with the great HC-B: If you get one good photograph a year you are doing well, he told me. I’m happy to get one every ten years, though!
I enjoyed this article Mike, I will still stick with what I said in a comments section years ago. If they revamped the CL with the X typ 113’s lens, or a new version of that lens. And sold it for around 2k, it would be a true X replacement and probably fly off the shelves. The CL was part way to what they perhaps should have done. Fuji would also be terrified.
I suspect that will never happen of course.
I agree. Won’t happen. If they had concentrated on a small APSC camera with a fixed focal length, they could have now offered a real competitor to the X100. Instead, what they offered was never “just right”. And the CL, which had a real chance of success, was allowed to die from neglect. Indeed, fix a 35mm Summicron to the CL body and it would have been a success.
I agree, and it’s a huge shame as they had all of the technology already developed. Adding a permanent lens was probably not complex, given the L mount options for the CL.
Leica lose, Fuji came out winners. As my X aged, I know that Leica doesn’t have me covered when it finally fails, and it is ten years old this year.
Dave, I remember you bought the X just about the time you started commenting here on Macfilos… So, after ten years, you most be one of our oldest [Ed: Make that “longest standing”] readers.
Surely some of our fabulous readership have been around longer than me. I think my first comments were around 2016 just as I decided to pull the credit card trigger on the X – that was after several years of rubber necking the site, and reading just about every inch of content. (sorry, I am a shade geeky like that).
I think my first article landed in 2017 – and was my a year with the X. Which in the modern world, has probably been googled by disappointed marriage guidance counsellors, believing I had found a secret to martial disharmony.
I am plotting an article and have it part written around my latest views on my beloved if slightly ailing X. Its wonderful imagery, my disappointment at Leicas failure to find a way forward and replace it, and what on earth I might end up doing next.
The tricky bit is that work just gets in the way – this week I have already done over 10 hours of travelling around the country – and still have more to do.
In ten years 🤣🤣🤣
I’d be happy with successfully capturing one decent moment.
IMHO Leica would avoid the entire lens mount issue on a new full frame compact if they created a new fixed lens. The camera becomes much simpler to manufacture and the VF becomes a fixed view. The success of the Q-series and also the Fuji X100 series is evidence of the marketability of such a camera, and the FOV of the X100 supports the notion that a 35mm full frame lens would be a good choice. A new M mount compact would create design complexity and market competition for the M cameras.
Bill, that’s exactly what I was thinking. At this point a small fixed lens camera would be just what I need to compliment my SL2s. Maybe with a 35mm Summarit 2.4 and a nice close focus. Aperture adjustment and a viewfinder. That would do just fine.
I have a few TL lenses that are now unused. What’s Leica planning for its customers who bought Apsc lenses? A SL camera is not really an option: too expensive and too big for the purpose. I’m not interested in large SL full frame lenses either.
Currently the only sensible solution in Leica world would be to buy a CL or TL used camera. I believe there’s a space to be filled here: maybe a smaller and cheaper full frame camera with L mount?
I don’t think Leica will do anything for owners of TL lenses. It’s a dead system, although you can use the lenses on full-frame L-Mount cameras. But I wouldn’t BUY them for that purpose, given the wide range of Sigma and Panasonic lenses available at the same or less cost.
Sadly I agree with you. I think I will buying an used CL. After all it’s a perfect travel camera that matches well with a Leica M or Q system. For a travel camera it’s compact, light, has enough mpx and a good sensor. The CL is still very usable today. It only misses IBIS and a better low light performance maybe. Autofocus is decent for panorama and portrait. Most of us don’t shoot action photography during holidays anyway…
I was chatting to David Stephens of Leica Store Manchester during last weekend’s Leica Society weekend in Leamington Spa. He says that he cannot get enough CLs. They fly off the shelves as soon as they are listed. I’ve heard similar stories from other dealers, indicating that maybe Leica made a bad call in ceasing production. A bit of TLC and positive noises about new lenses and the future, and the CL could still be with us. Great pity.
There is one outside possibility, that Sigma could make an APS-C body with L-Mount. This would resurrect the Leica lenses and, I suspect, be welcomed by many readers. I’d really like Panasonic to do this, but there’s no chance of that.
Yes, that would be an option. Sigma also offers the FPL camera which is rather small and full frame, but doesn’t have in-body viewfinder and the handling doesn’t convince me. Another option would be the Lumix full frame S cameras (a new model is expected soon), but again size would not be as convenient as a CL.
A Q sized camera with L mount, Ibis and modern sensor, would be my dream to fit TL lenses (even if in crop mode). Who knows if it will ever happen…
Interesting that you mention the Lumix S cameras. The S5 and S5II (both of which I own) are the same size and weight as the Lumix high-end M4/3 bodies. In this instance, the only weight advantage to the M4/3 cameras is the lighter lenses. But the S5 is a great little camera for carrying around.
Perhaps Sigma or even Panasonic could take the X philosophy and build on it. Replicating the CL and even adding IBIS is possible, keep a fixed lens and be sensible with the price – and Fuji will have competition , and competition is healthy.
The problem with Panasonic, as you know, is that they have a foot in four thirds and full frame camps. Fuji, on the other hand, have APS-C and MF, having decided for good reasons to avoid FF. So Panasonic could not develop an APS-C compact, which leaves only four-thirds or a full-framer.
I hadnt thought about it like that – looks like I would be Fuji bound, unless Leica find a way to a lower price point with a decent camera.
I am not a fan of micro 4/3rds, even though they are some great cameras out there.
Your photo of the photographer with the M3 shows precisely how great a photo can be when taken with a small format sensor. (And there’s a plenty of out-of-focus background bokeh, even though the caption says “24mm, f/3.2, 1/125s”.)
Those little sensors aren’t generally quite so good in low light as the 4x-bigger ‘full-frame’ sensors, but look at the sharpness and the detail and the – what you might call – “involvement”!
Crazy-Expensive big cameras don’t necessarily take ‘better’ photos. The teeny Sony RX100 series are terrific, as are the small-sensor Olympus cameras. It’s the lens and the photographer which make a good picture. Pride of ownership is not the same as photography.
Actually, David, you have me thinking. When I was editing the article I wondered if I had made a mistake specifying the 24mm focal length. I need to recheck the metadata in Lightroom.
I see that you previously used that photo – back in 2018 ..I thought it looked familiar – in a piece entitled “Lightroom adds support for Leica M10-P, M10-D and D-Lux 7” ..except that you used it there in colour (and with less cropping).
The version here, above, in b&w ..and cropped a bit tighter.. is so much more involving: I normally don’t like to see colour pics converted to B&W (..why lose the colour?..) but in this case it really gives ‘immediacy’, impact and ‘involvement’.
You didn’t mention the lens settings when shown in that previous colour version, but in B&W it’s a great photo ..and taken with a small sensor camera! (Here’s the link: https://tinyurl.com/DLux5even )
Many thanks for your kind words on the photo, David. It’s also one of my favourites. The young German photographer was typical of the new breed of Leica film users — tremendously enthusiastic and fascinated by all things Leica. Indeed, it was the M3 and my D-Lux that got us talking in the first place. It was taken on 27 November 2018 in Gendarmenmarkt, Stadtmitte in what was the old East Berlin. I have checked the focal length as promised. It was indeed a wide 24mm (10.9mm in “real life”) and was taken at f/3.2, 1/125s, ISO 100. Considering the wide angle and the four-thirds sensor, the overall background effect is very satisfactory. I agree with you that in this instance, the crop is justified! And I also agree on the sharpness and detail (including the glowing roll-yer-own between the subject’s fingers). Incidentally, the B&W conversion was done in Silver Efex Pro.
What struck me about his fingers is that he’s using the second finger of his right hand on the shutter button (most awkward ..I’ve just tried it!) ..a great photo of a photographer, and also of Youth-Liking-Leica, and Youth-Shooting-Film.
So evocative in many ways, especially as normally you’d expect his left eye to be closed as he looks through the finder, isolating him from the viewer of the photo ..but with his left eye open he’s involving, and in cahoots with, the photographer (you) ..and with those of us now looking at the photo (us)!
It’s a great person-to-person photograph, which also shows the enthusiasm of the person being photographed for photography itself! ..it’s what computer programmers might call ‘recursive’.
(..and the more I look at it, the more paradoxical it becomes – and I love a good paradox – because if it were a self-portrait ..and it would obviously have been shot on film ..as he’s using a film camera.. then even with very fine grain film, and with that particular lens (50mm Summicron f2 version II, 1956-1968), he probably would NOT have been able to get that sharpness, detail and contrast, without graininess, as in this photo which you took with a digital camera and a much more recent lens. So – if it were horizontally flipped to look like a self-portrait – it would not be what it seems!
Phew! ..I’d better stop now, or there won’t be room for anyone else left on this page!)
I thoroughly agree with you. Sometimes we get obsessed with sensor size. Must have full frame, and playing around with APS-C or (gasp) M4/3 is a total waste of time. I’ve owned a D-Lux 7 from the time it was launched, and it has gone everywhere with me. The image quality and detail is outstanding for a 4/3 sensor and, contrary to those who prefer a fixed focal length of 28mm or 35mm, I appreciate the 24-75 range of the D-Lux, and it has been helpful on many travels. Having read this article, I am now genuinely interested to see what Leica comes up with. If the new camera is a genuine update to the DL7, I will be very tempted to buy.
Leica made the same mistake twice by discontinuing the CL, first with the analog CL in the 1970s and more recently with the digital one. But that’s history. Looking ahead, M cameras aside, what Leica needs is a smaller, lighter, less expensive, L-mount camera body as an entry point into the L system (the SL3 is not significantly smaller or lighter than previous SL models). It has long been apparent that the “perfect” camera lies at the intersection of the Leica CL (digital) and the Leica Q cameras—that is, a CL with full-frame sensor and IBIS, or a Q3 that mounts L lenses. What’s more, with an adapter, such a camera could serve as the much talked about EVF-based body for M lenses; and if smaller, lighter, L-mount lenses were desired for this smaller, lighter body, they have already been designed and produced—that is, the CL/TL lenses. While it’s true that CL/TL lenses would produce only an APS-C sized image, a 60 megapixel, full-frame, Q3 sensor would still yield more than 26 megapixels, which is more than enough for almost any purpose (except, of course, mere pixel-peeping). A word to the wise is sufficient, Leica; a word to the wise is sufficient!
Art, I also agree that a smaller SL camera would be popular, even if it is just a declutterred and Leicafied LUMIX S5. The S5II is a great camera which sells for about £$1,750. With a Leica makeover and badge, it could fetch £$3,000 and provide that entry model.
Perhaps the answer lies in which camera sold best for Leica, the D-Lux7, the V-Lux5 or the C-Lux? My vote would be an updated version of the D-Lux7 without the silly variable format ratios and a manual zoom lens (autofocus of course). Less gadgetry the better! The 4/3rd sensors from the newer Panasonic cameras might be a good guess, I would not be interested in anything smaller.
Rick, I think I can answer the first bit. The last C-Lux was not a success. The D-Lux has been a moderate success, irrespective of whether D-lux 5, D-Lux or D-Lux 7. The main problem lay in the known fact that this was just a rebadged Panasonic, so there was no sense of exclusivity about it (except among those Leica buyers who didn’t know the association).
I would generally agree to a fixed-focus lens, as on the X100 and GRIII, but such a lens doesn’t exist, and I don’t think Leica would want to develop a new lens. Hence, my suggestion that the current 24-75 should be carried over. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
Actually I think they really should design a fixed lens compact around a new lens design and it might be a fun project for Peter Karbe to come up with something new. ( a 35mm please Peter! ) I think the success of the Q series is largely due to the quality of that 28mm lens! If the product is going to enjoy long term success it needs to have that stellar optical quality more than digital features. While 24-75 is a terrific range for convenience I’d take a smaller, faster aperture lens over that any day.
I think you’ve got the right formula, especially aligning the new camera’s controls with the simpler Leica cameras (I frequently find that I’ve switched on the D-Lux 7’s A setting thanks to the proximity of that button to the shutter button. One thing I would add: Switch the power zoom to a manual zoom and maybe put the on-off switch there, as was the case with the excellent Fujifilm X-10 that introduced me to the Fuji cameras (I’ve owned the X-E1, X-E2 and X-E3 rangefinder style cameras). I also like your idea for a name change. My slight alternative would be DL, signifying that this new camera’s heritage by calling it the DL-8. All in all, I think you’ve got it right.
Thanks Steve. Curiously, I also thought of DL but discounted it as a sort of sop to the CL. Also L now means L-Mount so it would probably be reserved for an ILC version.
Good point.
One more thing for my wish list: Dust and weather sealing. While I haven’t had any problems with my D-Lux 7, I have read accounts about dust getting to the sensor in the Leica and Panasonic cameras.
I’ll add it to my list too!
I know comments do not constitute a scientific survey, but judging by the number of comments to your post, it seems like there is considerable interest in, for lack of a better description, a new Leica entry-level camera to replace the CL.
Just so there is no mis-interpretation of my suggested “pocket Leica” I envision a camera more similar in size to the Leica CM or even slightly smaller and do not propose a EVF M camera. In fact without the volume of a film cannister, such a camera could be smaller than the CM. I traveled with the Rollei 35S in the 70s and really loved the image quality of the Sonnar lens combined with the small size. I also think a small AF lens is quite do-able since Leica did the 40 Summarit fixed AF lens on a full-frame (pocketable) film camera. Leica must resist trying to make a Summilux fit on a pocket camera to keep the size small.
An f/2 Summicron would be about right. Fuji didn’t find it a hindrance, and nor would Leica. Not so sure about f/2.8, though, purely from a marketing standpoint.
I see no future for APS only cameras besides Fuji and i don’t think there is a market for smaller sensor cameras at Leica prices but a FF camera like the Sigma FPL with built-in EVF could make for a brilliant successor to the CL as a compact system camera working with L, M and TL lenses in crop mode if needed. BTW the FPL works fine with most of my M lenses in FF mode already.
The only real advantage of APS-C is the ability to make a lighter system. But I agree that this advantage is often wasted. Even high-end MFT cameras are bigger and heavier than some FF cameras, although the less “pro” lenses help make for a lighter system. So you have a good argument, although there does seem to be a market for the smaller sensor.
I am with Bill Royce: a small camera with evf, without autofocus, but then with a M mount. Or as an alternative a small camera with L mount with autofocus, but then Leica has to make small and light lenses to accompany it. In fact the CL, but then with small full frame lenses. It can be done as Sigma showed us.
Both are a miniaturisation of current product lines. As Steve Jobs learned us it is better to be your own competitor instead of someone else.
This is possibly true, but I know that Leica fears undermining the M rangefinder, which is the cash cow, by introducing an M with EVF. I think both cameras could live well together and, as you hint, it doesn’t matter which version customers buy as long as they are buying from Leica.
One interesting question, though, is how much an EVF M would cost. If the M-D is anything to go by, less is more when it come to the price tag. It’s well known that the rangefinder mechanism costs a lot of money, perhaps as much as 15% of the cost of the camera, so we would hope that the EVF M would sell at a “more attracive” price… We can hope.
However, none of this fills the space of an entry-level Leica.
Fear is a bad counsellor… M addicts will always buy their rangefinder, that is the market Leica created and nurtures. But I seldom see younger people with a M camera though. I’d rather like to know if people younger than 50 are buying Leica M cameras. I fear there lies the weak spot for Leica.
The Pixii for example is a cheaper, modern alternative (with aps-c though), but is not really competing with M camera’s anytime soon. It is apparently not attractive enough.
I guess younger people are more attracted (if at all) to lightweight cameras with autofocus. Even Leica as a small factory is able to make that. The CL was a good example. But no, not exactly entry level.
I fear that entry level and Leica always will be a contradiction, it is not their market. When they entered that market they always stopped rather quickly.
My dear old DL-109 is getting creaky with a moaning zoom mechanism and occasional forgetful focusing. With a Q3 and a CL and a few lenses available as alternatives, you could argue that the DL-109 and possible successor are redundant, but there are times when it’s the perfect choice.
I like its compactness and analogue controls that make it feel like a “real” camera. The image quality is pretty good if you don’t print to A3. I would love to see a successor and would almost certainly buy one if it improved image quality and had a better EVF.
The question for buyers would be whether there was a sufficient leap in performance and modernization over the DL-7 and competitors like the GRIII to justify the purchase. Let’s hope Leica have made more of an effort and a commitment to the future than they did with the APSC cameras.
I think a four-thirds compact, whether fixed focal length or zoom, is never going to satisfy X100 or GRIII users who would be reluctant to go to a smaller sensor than APS-C. And why should they? The GRIII is smaller than the D-Lux and (accepting the lack of zoom) has better image quality. It just lacks a viewfinder. I don’t think a Leica compact based on the D-Lux would aim to compete with the Fuji or Ricoh. Instead, it would be aimed at existing Leica owners who want something smaller (in addition to their Ms, Qs or whatever) and newcomers who are attracted by the Leica image and wouldn’t necessarily know anything about sensors, crops and all that.
Porsche launched the Boxster to bring in new customers at a lower price point. It was seen as inferior by 911 owners until they drove it and understood what it was capable of. It saved Porsche as did the Cayenne later.
The question for Leica is not saving the company but developing a package that will appeal to existing owners and attract new ones at an affordable price point. Is that FF or MFT? No idea!
Given the small size of the 40mm Summarit lens on the CM and Minilux, I suspect an AF version of the 35 summicron would not have to be that big, IMHO. I would even settle for a 35 Elmarit f/2.8 to keep the size very small.
What about a FF digital version of the Minilux with its 40mm lens? It was a great pocketable camera my wife used to own many years ago.
It would be neither mini nor lux, I think. But a good suggestion.
Hello Mike,
Niels here from the Netherlands. As allways a great article and I would be very tempted if a Leica D (Lux 8) wil come to life. I’m totally on your page when it comes to wishes and things I would like to see in a new Leica compact. I started my Leica experience with a Leica X (typ 113) and loved it. Since then I’ve been lucky enough to buy a Leica Q through a friend who is a photographer. A very nice upgrade. After that came a Q2 again bought from my friend. End of last year I made the stupid mistake to sell my Q2 as I was longing for an interchangeable system. I bought the Sigma Fp. A good camera, but not a Leica and, most importantly, missing an evf. Luckily my friend came to the rescue, again, and sold me his SL2.
A great camera, but rather big for my usage (family portraits and documenting life as it happens). I am looking to go back to a Q2 or a Q3 but I must say that a D (lux 8) could probably do for me.
I know I will loose some image quality comparing to the Q2. But if it is compact and resembles the Q2 and SL2 button lay out and physical controls I think I’m in.
I’m curious to know if there are Macfilos users who own the D-Lux 7 and a Q and how they think they compare. And according to all rumors we probably don’t have to wait long to see what is coming.
Kind regards,
Niels
Interesting journey, Niels. I think we’ve all been there, at least in thoughts. While the D-Lux 7 is a good camera and can be very convenient to carry around, it is an entirely different beast to the Q3. I can quite image someone owning both cameras because the four-thirds camera is smaller and lighter to carry around. The Q3 is a superb performer and could not be approached in image quality by the D-Lux, good as it is for what it offers.
Thank you for your reply Mike. I know a D (lux 8) will not match the Q in image quality. Question is, do I need that kind of quality for the kind of photography I shoot. Possibly (probably and most likely) not. Looking back at the files of my Leica X I still find them very pleasing. So if the D (lux 8) is at 60 to 75 % of the image quality of the Q and with same body style and buttons it could most certainly do the job for me. And by going this route I completely follow the Leica motto of “Das Wesentliche”. 🙂
But it all depends on for factor and menu system.
Quite right. In fact, if we wanted a camera purely to use in illustrating a blog such as Macfilos, then a D-Lux would do the job admirably (as would an iPhone 15 if truth were known). But we are writing about a wide range of cameras, so need to be familiar with them!
My suggestion for Leica: Create a Leica version of a minimalist full frame pocketable (or purse size!) with some/all of the following:
Fixed AF (with manual override) 35mm Summicron (differentiates from the Q)
EVF and AE with manual aperture override
Such a camera does not need a large battery and could function without an SD card and could be charged via a USB-C connector. I could envision a combination of the designs of the Leica CM and the Rollei 35S.
The full frame differentiates this from the Fuji X100 series
Thanks, Bill. This is an interesting variation on the “M with EVF” concept that has been going the rounds for the past few years. Stefan Daniel, at the Dublin LSI meeting in 2022, offered (perhaps tongue-in-cheek) to make one if the members present would guarantee sales of “a couple of thousand”. But here you are suggesting, I think, a new AF 35mm Summicron, which would be much larger than a Summicron-M. And I don’t think the camera body could be smaller than the current M. I am not so sure if it would sit happily alongside the Q. Perhaps a better idea is for a Q with a fixed-focal length (35mm, for instance). However, this would mean developing a new lens. What do other readers think?